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Removals and Storage to Portugal




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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:49 am
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Location: The UK (still!!)
Hi all,

Right, been here just about two weeks, and the amount we have packed in it feels like ages - certainly we find it hard remembering our previous life (which is a good thing).

Progress: Arranged utilities OK; got the Atestados from the Junta no problem; got our Certificados da Residençia from the Câmara again no problem. And then today we tried the Centro de Saúde...

Despite this being in Leiria, which can not be devoid of estrangeiros the two receptionists were, shall we say, not as helpful as those at the other places we'd been to.

They tried to say we should have PT SS numbers, but I explained we were not working but not yet receiving UK pensions; then they wanted our EHIC cards, which I tried to explain were irrelevant because they are no longer valid.

Anyway, after about an hour and a half we came away with SNS numbers, but on the sheet of paper it states:

Tipo de Utente: Migrante Estrangeiro Não Resident Seg. Estrangeir

which I take to mean "Migrant foreigner, not resident" - not sure what the "Seg. estrangeir" bit means. This despite giving them the papers from the Camara - they seemed to think that the 5-year limit on the Residencia papers meant we were not fully resident, and so not eligible for the full health service.

Further down the paper we have:

Entidades Responaveis: Reino Unido, followed by our EHIC card numbers and their expiry dates.


Am I reading this correctly, in that there shouldn't really be any reference to the UK being a "responsible entity".

But for the fact that we do need a doctor to get some regular prescriptions, I would be tempted to just suck it and see. We will only be in this area for a year, so we could wait and get properly registered at wherever we finally move to. However, I am concerned that the fact that the UK is mentioned might come back to bite us sometime.

Any thoughts, as ever, very gratefully received.

Ta,

Steve


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:51 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:00 am
Posts: 94
Doesn't sound right. Our Documento de Identificação do Utente health documents don't have a section Tipo de Utente (User type). They only mention of UK on ours is for Nacionalidade and Naturalidade, and no mention of EHIC cards or responsible entity. As you say, beyond any problems of use in PT, could cause problems with UK. It sounds like just a document to accompany your EHIC, not properly registered into the SNS. I think. You need to go back and get this sorted, if you can bear. Search previous threads on here for links to helpful SNS-issued flowchart that will explain to your local, friendly receptionists what they need to do. Good luck.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Location: Minho
Just to clear up the "Seg. Estrangeir." for you, it's an abbreviation of "segurado no estrangeiro" or something very similar ie insured in another member state and covered by their social security system. And you're correct in that you aren't.

Here's a link to the relevant chart mentioned by M&M in English on the PT Health Regulator website : https://www.ers.pt/uploads/writer_file/ ... n_novo.pdf

It clearly shows registration in the public health service on the strength of the residence certificate issued by your Câmara Municipal, as you're a permanent resident, citizen of another EU member state but not covered by any other member state's social security system.

Here it is in Portuguese : https://www.ers.pt/uploads/writer_file/ ... _A3_pt.pdf

Here's the main page they came from : https://www.ers.pt/pages/438?news_id=1203

That chart has been displayed in both languages on the noticeboard in the waiting room of my local health centre for some long time now.

You need to be properly registered in order to get the benefit of the subsidised prescription charges.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:49 am
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Location: The UK (still!!)
Thanks both for your replies. I had the flowchart, but hadn't taken it with me (dumbo...)

What I did have were these:

https://servicos.min-saude.pt/utente/In ... Foreigners

and

https://www.dgs.pt/ms/8/pagina.aspx?cod ... 64AAAAAAAA

which obviously didn't persuade them.

I'll go back on Monday, more fully armed.

Cheers,

Steve


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:51 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:00 am
Posts: 94
Thanks for linking those again, X - lazy, lazy M&M :-) (slaps own wrist)

Hopefully taking those flowcharts in 2 languages, and may be a copy of the webpage it cam from, so they can look for themselves, should get things sorted. If not, maybe you'll need to get them in touch with the SS office to explain, phoning the SS yourself whilst in the health centre then handing your phone over, if needs be!

Let us know how you get on. Fingers crossed.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:14 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:57 pm
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Location: Minho
There does seem to be a bit of conflicting info floating around still. Those links of yours, Steve, and some others I've seen don't seem to cater for economically inactive citizens from other member states but were ostensibly published after the charts and the manual for the reception of foreign citizens into the health service, which do.

That manual is available here (in PT only, I'm afraid) with the relevant very explicit explanation in section 1.4 running through from halfway down page 15 to the end of page 17 (and in particular the 4th paragraph on page 16 and the bullet list beneath it) : https://www.sns.gov.pt/wp-content/uploa ... imento.pdf

Just for background really - I'm not sure in your shoes I'd want to go wading in waving that around at them at this stage if you get another refusal.

Besides SS as suggested by M&M above, I've read of a couple of other bodies - an ombudsman service and a NGO that's concerned with the accomodation of migrants - that might provide help in clarifying things to your health centre if you're still getting blanked by them after your next visit.

And I'll join with M&M in wishing you the best of luck. And many congrats on finally making the move - hope it all turns out brilliantly for you.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:53 pm 
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Location: The UK (still!!)
Thank you for the link - as you say, very clear on what is the correct process.

I take your point about not being too over official at this stage - it shouldn't be the case, but there are occasions where people with a degree of control over things can make your life very difficult, so best not antagonise them.

I will go with the flowchart and see where that gets me. I have a feeling that the confusion rests on the definition of "Permanent Residence". Because the Certificate from the Câmara only lasts 5 years, I think they saw this as temporary. I need to be able to explain that temporary means being here on holiday, for a business trip, or short-term employment and so forth.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Cheers,

Steve


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:54 pm 
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Location: The UK (still!!)
Well, still not settled.

I tried with the flowchart, and after a long discussion, I did have to resort to the relevant sections from the large manual that XC linked to. I have at least managed to persuade them that our EHIC cards are no longer relevant, but they (and the receptionist spoke at length with her "supervisor"; I regret I didn't get details of who/where that was) are insisting we go to the Portuguese SS to confirm our status.

So, I see our options as:

- Take it "upstairs" - but where/who is upstairs, and there is no guarantee that whoever this is is not the same person the receptionist was talking to on the phone.

- Try another Centro de Saúde - given the negative experience we have had at this Centro, we have concerns that the level of service we get from them might be compromised.

Is it even allowed for us to go to another Centro, or do we have to go to the one nearest to us? And anyway, there is no guarantee that another Centro would have any different attitude, especially if the "supervisor" is at a regional level, and so would be overseeing both Centros.

- Go to the local SS and get some form of clarification of our status (as suggested earlier by M&M). What could be the implications of doing this - will the PT SS understand the concept of "cidadão não ativo"; is there a risk that they might demand some sort of SS payment (but based on what - we have no income).

- Ask our solicitor to write on our behalf. I really don't want to use this option, it really should be the last resort.

Any suggestions will be, as ever, gratefully received.

Cheers,

Steve


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:11 am
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Location: Beira Baixa region
> - Go to the local SS and get some form of clarification of our status (as suggested
> earlier by M&M). What could be the implications of doing this - will the PT SS understand
> the concept of "cidadão não ativo"; is there a risk that they might demand some
> sort of SS payment (but based on what - we have no income).

Have already been down this route quite a few years back & following on from a similar visit to the Ss offices in Castelo Branco; They stated in writing that we did not need a SS number to register at a health center & furthermore were not prepared to issue us one just for that.
If I can find the original letter, I will scan it onto here later if you need.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:19 pm 
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Thank you janatquintanet - a copy of that letter would be helpful if you can find it easily (don't turn your house upside-down looking for it).

Thanks,

Steve


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